Feb 19
What is oDesk all about exactly?
In a recent post, I made a comment or two about some quality projects I’ve found on oDesk.com. Apparently, some have questioned my understanding of oDesk, so I decided to take a deeper look into the site and their services.
Hmmm, yup, says here:
Welcome to oDesk, the online staffing marketplace connecting businesses (Buyers) to remote workers (Providers).
Seems to me they provide a marketplace for connecting businesses to remote workers. This isn’t exactly a new concept, there are other sites out there not unlike oDesk (guru.com, gofreelance.com, ifreelance.com) and the list goes on and on.
All these sites are more or less the same deal, companies post projects and look for workers to make a match. Outsourcing I like to call it, though I hardly coined the term, you may have heard of it before. Nothing wrong with the sites themselves, including oDesk. Some sites provide better deals than others of course, and some have more quality project postings than others. Let’s do a comparison for giggles.
In my first search on Guru.com, I looked for Adobe Flex jobs and found about 6 posted, with a low budget of $250 and a high of over $25,000. A good number of projects I see listed on Guru.com seem fair enough, there are of course some that seem a pinch pathetic. Not Guru.com’s fault of course, but some companies, it seems, would like a whole heaping wad of work done and would prefer to pay next to nothing to have it done, and have it done quickly I might add.
I know this may come as a surprise to some of you, but I’ve found far more of these types of projects listed on oDesk.com. In one quick search for current project listings, I came across such winners as “Cropping images in Photoshop” where the Beijing company seeking work to be done states:
We are offering a rate of $5 for a batch of 500 images split into 2. There is potential for further batches upon completion of this batch.
Although that would not only give you tons of experience in image cropping, as well as a great spotlight for your resume, by the time you get done with 10,000 images you would have earned yourself a cool $100 bill! Now I don’t know about you, but the people who pump electricity into my office, the cable company, the food store, the gas station, they seem to randomly raise their rates due to the “cost of living” and $100 doesn’t go very far these days. If I had any fingers left after the cropping of 10,000 images, I might not be able to grasp my $100, let alone toss it over to the aforementioned companies.
Let’s look at another project posted on oDesk.com. Here’s another, oh wait, is this a project? For a budget of $5 (literally) The listing says:
I am programming in ASP and using MYSQL database I just need the code for the following: 1. Say there is a tab on the navigation bar that says Buy. When a user points on buy a drop down appears with Land, Apartment, etc. If the user clicks on Land then I want all the land listings to display. So I need a query that would allow me to get all the land listings from my database and display on more …
Hold on hold on wait wait wait……I’ll need my $5 now if I’m going to read the rest of that post, I’m getting a headache. Again, not oDesk’s fault, it’s the people posting projects on these sites that give me indigestion. So to clear things up, follow me here, if I know anything about oDesk.com at all, its a guru.com-like, project outsourcing website where global buyers match up with global workers and either both parties end up with a handsome deal, or one party makes away with the goods while the other takes a good 5 across the eyes.
Does this sound like a reasonable assessment? Again, nothing against Mr. and Mrs. oDesk and family, but maybe they should weed out these types of silly projects. Or maybe they don’t mind those types at all? One of the testimonials on oDesks’s site says about a customer:
He has been using oDesk’s online service to find development help and said he works most closely with a programmer in Russia who is paid $15 per hour. A U.S.-based programmer doing similar work would expect hourly rates of $60 to $120
Firstly, to that I say, nay, not always so. Some of us American programmers would be willing (and have) worked for a Digg click, or maybe a trackback. In the near future, I may not be above doing a quick banner for a sandwich barter type arrangement. Secondly, being an American programmer as I am, this means one more job overseas for money I couldn’t compete with. Why? Because my cable company, the people pumping electricity into my office, the food store etc won’t be happy when I offer them a ham on rye as payment (barter deal once again) because I’m too poor to afford to pay them the frog skin.
The same company, however, would expect me to pay full price for my sneakers, aspirin, big screen tv that will be obsolete inside a year, and so on even though I may collect payments via an order to Subway.
Another company testimonial on oDesk.com states:
Drive your labor costs with oDesk, which makes it easy to find talented programmers on the cheap.
To add “mwahahahahhahaha” at the end of that sentence would most likely get even more buyers in the future. Here’s another company who wrote:
oDesk continues its efforts to improve tools that track jobs and knit together virtual workers from India to Russia ever more closely with the home office.
Very global of them. Here’s two lists of providers testimonials and buyer’s testimonials for your consideration if my post has you anxious to jump on in and sign up right away. You can find such buyer testimonials as the one who speaks almost lovingly of his Russian programmer he found on oDesk:
He is as talented as the best I have ever hired and he is easier to manage than many other programmers two offices down the hall.
Used in this context however, I’m not sure that I’d add that testimonial to my website if I were the Russian programmer. This being said, think of me what you will, vote for my post or shart upon it, I care not. This is a matter that strikes home for me, outsourcing and watching companies manipulate workers whether they be American, Russian, Indian, or even from a country that sounds like mangina. If we keep up at this rate, we’ll find ourselves working for such circus sideshow acts as
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Hey David,
1) Glad to hear that you’ve received a few quality projects thru oDesk.
2) Glad that you’ve taken the time to scour the oDesk network.
3) Sad that you’ve focused only on the lowest quality jobs available in your post.
I hope you’ll agree that there are plenty of “good” jobs available on oDesk as well as the low-quality ones you’ve posted above. At oDesk, our main goal for this year is to focus on user quality, and that means both buyers and providers. We hope you’ll stay involved and help us improve the marketplace for all users.
Cheers,
Josh Breinlinger
oDesk
Hi Josh,
I haven’t actually received any, or applied for any projects through oDesk, of any type or quality, but thank you. In fact, I haven’t had any projects from any outsourcing site to date. I get a great deal of my projects primarily from salvaging left over projects that have been outsourced beyond recognition.
Scour is a strong word, but as this post originated from a remark I received challenging my knowledge of oDesk, I’ve decided to take a deeper look and give it a fair shot.
Sad indeed is my focus on the lowest quality projects listed though not only on oDesk.com, but guru.com, ifreelance.com, gofreelance.com and so on. The focus of this post however was two-fold; 1. To give some clarity on some of the listings I’ve seen like the image cropping for $5 per 500 images, and 2. Outsourcing overseas for cut-throat rates really stinks….but only if you’re an American developer, not if you’re an American company who’s currently outsourcing.
I definitely agree, to be fair, that I have seen some decent looking projects listed on oDesk. I was simply pointing out some of the ones that get hardly any coverage. On top of that, who’s to say what’s a good project? Cropping 10k images for $100 could be one man’s ceiling, unfortunately though, if you’re an American developer, it’s the electric company’s floor.
I have seen some quality jobs, listed on oDesk, Guru, iFreelance etc as well as the ones that make me chorttle almost as powerfully as when I watch an orangutan peeing on itself at the zoo.
I will, however, definitely always add my input and try to stay involved with the marketplace in hopes that my doing so will help provoke more conversation on the topics of outsourcing and finding projects online, as they are topics that closely concern myself and many other colleagues in the field.
Ah, gotcha.
I misinterpreted this statement:
“In a recent post, I made a comment or two about some quality projects I’ve found on oDesk.com.”
Anyway, some of the jobs make me laugh too - my favorites are always the buyers that want a “clone of ebay” for under $1,000. There are always going to be some crazy people out there. It’s our job (and our goal) to filter out those people and allow high quality buyers to find and work with high quality providers.
-Josh
100$/month doing image cropping would be nice money for those few billion people who live under 2$/day. I have been using lot’s of low cost resources from eastern europe and india and there has been lot’s of problems. However there is lot’s of good experiences as well and after finding right people and right ways to work its very much worth of doing.
Top sellers on those sites would charge at US/EU rates, and still get more work than they can handle. The common entry strategy for sellers on those sites is to bid as low as they can in order to get their work rated (pretty much like your trackback example). If they manage to get a good rating and a decent project history, they raise their rates.
Then, I work for a Russian company and we tried those sites a few years ago. Even though we did not compete on price, we landed a few small projects through RentACoder.com at $25-30/hour.
Finally, you may be able to get a much bigger deal on more favorable terms after you are done with the first “test” project. One of the RAC jobs I mentioned turned into multiple man-months direct engagement and the only client we signed up through Guru.com is still buying our services from time to time.
@T
Agreed, for people across the world living on under $2 USD a day, $100 per month would be a decent setup. So the workers overseas, and the companies (specifically the American and European ones) would make a killing paying such little money for labor.
Great deal for the companies, and the overseas workers. The ones who suffer for that deal is the American and European workers who would have been hired otherwise, but their rates are “too high”. I wouldn’t have a problem being paid $100 USD a month at all, if my bills were more like: Cable $1 per month, Electric $2 per month, food $3 per month
But the American companies collecting on my bills unfortunately don’t pass the savings on foreign labor on to me, but instead they line their pockets and make massive year-end bonuses for themselves. I would imagine it’s the same thing for a programmer in the UK who lost his job at a big company in the UK because they’re hiring overseas workers and still charging the ex-employee the same price for his cable tv every month.
@Dmitry
No doubt a worker in Russia or India, for example, is getting more work than they can handle from this outsourcing. I wouldn’t ever suggest to anyone to bid low for themselves because it only hurts them in the long run, but eventually I’m sure they do make some great money and are loaded with work.
For that worker, and for the hiring company, it’s a great deal. I can’t claim to be an expert on the exchange rates, so if a Chinese company hires a Chinese developer at what appears to be a silly rate to me ($5 for 500 cropped images in Photoshop) it may be a great deal? No idea. But if an American company hires a worker overseas for that rate, and then turns around and tries to sell an American a service at a typical American rate, that’s great for the overseas worker, great for the company, and the American citizen gets screwed. Our jobs go overseas so less work, but we’re still forced to pay the same prices for everything, in fact the prices constantly go up.
Many American companies moved their manufacturing to Mexico, or China, sent all those jobs over so they can have their products built cheaply. So Americans lose work, and the very same companies turn around and force us to pay the same old prices, there’s little or no savings passed onto us, but the big guys at these companies get astronomical year-end bonuses…nice!
They’re beginning to reap the rewards though, the Euro is ever so slightly worth more than the American dollar now, which is the first time in my life I remember seeing that
Maybe in a few years I’ll be living on $2 Euros a day?
That being said, I have some images that need cropping, and I lay out a nice ham sandwich, I’ll even toss a shiny Euro to the first person to send me their resume…..hehehe.
Welcome to global economy, Dave.
In fact, the outsourcing trends have reversed to a considerable extent recently. Companies realized that on-site personnel having the same (business) culture is more cost-effective in many cases. So now the hottest buzzwords are “nearshoring” and “rural outsourcing”.
Also, Russia is in a difficult position - the costs of living are much higher than in India or China, so we cannot really compete on price. In fact, all the commodity goods and food are much cheaper in the US, even in SF Bay Area, than in my place. We are still behind in property and medical insurance costs, but we are catching up.
That said, what you and us have to do to protect our jobs is to master our scientific/business knowledge and engineering skills. I won’t care how much my customer would spend on image cropping if they paid me $100/hour for producing those images.
Dmitry,
but hopefully more companies will realize that they need to put the money they save back into our economy by not sending most of their operations overseas and/or cutting down on costs.
Definitely agreed. I have seen many companies like Dell moving operations back to the US. The word “nearshoring” freaks me out still
If Dell gave me a kick butt XPS (and I mean kick butt) for $500 it wouldn’t be so bad.
Agreed also, we have to stay on top technology-wise, that’s why I became my own boss. A. I allow myself to sleep in the office, and B. it forced me to stay even more on top of cutting edge tech.
Medical bills are the #1 (or close to so I’ve read) reason for bankruptcy in the US and thats just sad. I’ve posted about my awesome hospital bill a while back that I’m still paying off, and probably will be until they just tack it onto my funeral expenses one day and make my family pay it.
If you hear of anyone hiring for image cropping at $100, definitely let me know!
Dave,
Think Canada for nearshoring. Don’t know what the CAD/USD rate trend though.
Just read that Euro has broken through $1.50 level. Uh oh.
I know people from the US and the EU used to go to Russia to undergo eye and dental surgery - it was much cheaper even if you add the cost of the trip. Not sure if it is still the case.
Wish you good health.
Ya, fantastic news
Euro is kicking USD’s rear, and I think the CAD has been worth more for a few months now. Very sad.
I’ve read many stories of people swinging over to other countries for medical treatment because it’s way cheaper which is really sad. That is why I offer the Dave Flatley Medical Plan (don’t get sick) for $0.00 per month for anyone. I really think it’ll end up taking off someday.
I thank you Dmitry, and I wish you good health too, and certainly there’s always the DF health plan should any of us ever need it
good article
RE the picutre cropping - I think, maybe, that you are forgettign this is the information age and many tasks can be automated. Don’t expect that because the price is cheap, it will be done by untrained people manually.
In about 15 mins to 1/2 and hour I could whip out a program that can crop images - and it could easily link to a list of crop sizes if their sizes changed. Assuming that this job goes to someone who can also whip out a program like this, then they have just made themselved $5 for 1/2 hour work. Assuming it takes another 1/2 an hour to process the images, that’s $5 for an hour’s work. That is well over double the average wage in many countries (calcualtes to an approximate wage of $90-100,000 US per year).
As oDesk gains in popularity an economy and equilibrium will form, so that unrealistic jobs won’t get accepted, and poor workers will be identified. But as it stands, I think the system is brilliant.
I definitely wouldn’t think that just because the hourly is cheap, that it’s untrained people. On the contrary, I would imagine it’s mostly highly trained developers/designers/etc, in a lot of cases, better trained than a lot of people in the States can afford. In many other countries, education is actually affordable.
Considering the value of the USD now though, this post is kind of dated anyway because a lot of other countries currency caught up thanks to the powers that be. So maybe one day, someone in Europe will hire me for a $5 EURO per hour Flex gig and I’ll be a happy man
Dave,
Good try to analyse the market place.
I guess you know nothing about oDesk. Please dont try to compare oDesk with the scrap like guru, gofreelance, ifreelance.., etc.
Some points i want to let u know.
1. On oDesk, we have hourly rate between 1 USD to 30 USD.
2. oDesk charges very little amount from the provider and the buyer AFTER the assignment is completed(Buyer is safe here) and AFTER the provider gets funds from the buyer(Provider is safe here), which is not happening in any of the websites listed by you.
3. oDesk GUARANTEES money to the provider in case of hourly assignments. This is the biggest factor to be considered in current situation of FRAUDS and SCAMS.
4. oDesk has WELL MANAGED and WELL ORGANIZED structure which is not found in any of the sites given by you.
5. You ignored the fact that 1 USD is equal to 48 Indian Rupees and 47.5 Philippines Pesos.
oDesk is UNCAMPARABLE place where the buyers as well as the providers are HAPPY.
You can discuss this with me any time on nnasika@gmail.com.
Thanks,
NNasika,
Successfull oDesk Provider
Hey NNasika,
Sounds happy to me. But I should probably update this post; my issue wasn’t 1 USD = 600,000 something-or-others, it was American jobs going over seas, where the money would be great for an overseas worker, but American’s get screwed when our jobs are disappearing. Hence the current market. And I guess with the USD dwindling, it won’t matter sooner or later.
For the record, I should say oDesk = oDesk, and American companies that farm jobs overseas for some pathetic amount of money in the guise that “hey, this is a lot of money for someone in the Ukraine, but I’m not lowering the price of my product accordingly when I want Americans to buy it” aren’t thinking too hard.
That’s less jobs for Americans, less money, and who the hell is going to go out and buy anything? That just makes for a sucko economy. Unless I can grab a job for $10 per hour building killer RIA’s, and then go pay $10 to fill my gas tank, then I won’t complain
But oDesk isn’t responsible for those companies’ projects, and overseas workers aren’t at fault for talking jobs. IF you’re American and you can afford to work for the lower paying projects……awesome, I’d like to talk about how you plan your budget 
Back again. Just one rather long point about a misconception.
“American jobs going over seas” - or as Southpark says it: “theeeir taking oooor jooooobs”. On the face of it, it sounds exactly like what is happening but it doesn’t work out that way. Increased outsourcing has, todate, generated greater produtivity, creating a larger economy and more jobs. This is a macro-economic argument that actually has stood up to the rigorous test of time.
If an American company can pay Person1 $30/h to do a job, or Person2 to do the same job at $5/h, then on the face of it is sounds like $5/h goes overseas, and that America looses out on a $30 job. But from the company’s perspective they are paying an American $25 an hour extra to do something just because they are American. From a company’s perspective, they are loosing $25 for no good reason.
Let’s say this is a large organisation and they decide to ourdsource 1,000 Admin positions at this $5/hour. That’s a savings of $25,000/hour - or $52,000,000 per year. Also assume that the company is producing the same products at the same quality when they do this.
To a business a savings is as good as a profit. So the company has actually made $52,000,000 more. That’s $52,000,000 more that can be taxed, $52,000,000 more that is available for investment, and $52,000,000 more that goes to the owners of the company (share holders). Alternatively, that’s $52,000,000 LESS they can charge for products to other Americans, effectively saving Americans money.
Because of a reduced cost while producing the same product the company is more profitable, and has the ability to reduce prices to increase market share, or maintain the same proce but take the reduced cost as profit to the share holders.
Either way, if a company can do the same tasks for a cheaper price, the company is more profitable. That’s increased productivity and improved efficiency. America benefits by the company outsourcing to a cheaper worker. Increased profits of companies means increased economy, means increased number of jobs.
But that doesn’t make sense, sending American jobs overseas makes more American jobs, right? Look at the major manufactures such as Nike. They oursource almost all production overseas and yet by independant evaluation they are able to employ more Americans because of it!!! Sure - there are few textile manufacturers left anywhere in America, but there are lots more sales, marketing and executive jobs, all with employees who are much happier than factory workers. And that’s not to mention the fact that American cloaths are VERY cheap. 100 years ago, even with industrialisation, clothes were so expensive that most families made their own clothes. Due to outsourcing American families save money and time, money and time they can invest in other things (such as themselves).
So by outsourcing jobs that can be outsourced there are going to be more American jobs. Maybe less jobs in some areas, such as data entry, and other basic areas, but overall more jobs.
It isn’t all peaches, and there are down sides to globalisation, but in the end outsourcing, and oDesk, is a good thing for America, and a good thing for the world.
FYI - I am Australian
Hey Philip,
I have to respectfully disagree with most of what you said. As an actual American business owner, as well as citizen who actually does need lots of good ole USD to afford an actual material existence.
You said: “But from the company’s perspective they are paying an American $25 an hour extra to do something just because they are American. From a company’s perspective, they are loosing $25 for no good reason.”
It’s not just because we’re American, it’s because we need a certain USD amount just to maintain a decent life. $30 USD comes to about 62k per year. If you’re a single 20 something renting an apartment (depending on where you live also) you can maintain a decent life.
If you’re married with kids, now you’re in trouble unless you happen to be renting a tiny apartment and not above eating the occasional pet for holidays. Now having lived in NYC, I can say that 62k per year when you’re raising kids isn’t going to cut it. Option A, move to a cheaper spot, there are plenty of spots in the US where you can live on 62k with kids, although I hope you don’t plan to send them to Yale, unless they get scholarships. Education and health care cost big money here.
So it’s not that a company is paying more just because someone’s American, they also happen to be setting the prices of food, electric, housing markets, so on and so on, and supply and demand dictate what one needs to survive, how much one needs to drive a porsche vs a honda civic etc.
Your said: “Alternatively, that’s $52,000,000 LESS they can charge for products to other Americans, effectively saving Americans money.”
Not effectively, but rather, in theory. Doesn’t work though, because that never ending human flaw we call greed
The great majority of companies save a bundle, and the ones who don’t squash their own investors actual do make them money, but they most certainly don’t pass the savings onto the average Joe. My Nikes cost about $60 10 yrs ago, and they cost the same right now. I did, however, get laid off more than once, but still paid the same for sneakers.
You said: “From a company’s perspective, they are loosing $25 for no good reason.”
I agree….lots of big companies don’t think their employees are a good reason.
You said: “America benefits by the company outsourcing to a cheaper worker. Increased profits of companies means increased economy, means increased number of jobs.”
Agreed, increased economy for elsewhere but most of America (average Joe who just lost his job), profits yes, number of increased job positions, yes……to send back overseas
You said: “That’s $52,000,000 more that can be taxed, $52,000,000 more that is available for investment, and $52,000,000 more that goes to the owners of the company (share holders).”
To this, I’ll say, agreed, agreed, and agreed, but the first part is conditional. “Could” be taxed, but aren’t. Just ask Microsoft
they know good accountants.
As a company owner myself, when I look to hire someone for a job, I know I could farm it out overseas and make quite a profit. But I don’t. If I were to hire an American, I know I can’t pay them $5 for a programming job, that’s ridiculous, how would they pay for anything? At that rate they could afford 2.5 soft drinks from a vending machine per hour. But I wouldn’t be able to sleep with myself at night knowing I screwed someone.
If I did farm it out overseas, no problemo with that. The only problem is, when everyone does it and there’s no equalibrium, our economy goes….oh wait, our economy IS in the pooper right now
but Exxon is doing great, so are the shareholders….so far.
With that said, in 2009 I’ll be looking to hire Adobe Flex and Java devs, and I’ll make sure to pay extremely well or I won’t hire at all if I can’t afford it. To me it’s as simple as the golden rule
I have been on oDesk as a Services Provider, for the past month or so, and I have already made a small sum of money, without using any money or credit card. Before this, I spent close to $50 on elance.com for membership fees and buying connects. I have spent $50 on guru.com for an yearly membership and no return on investment. As the broadband speeds pick around the world, including 3G and WiMax. It would become easy to encash skills.
@T
What you are missing is that people who participate in the global marketplace don’t live on $2 a day or $60 a month.
The part of the globe that lives on $2/day lives in slums with no internet, computer, electricity, place to live or ability to read.
In terms of raw human productivity and the rate of resource extraction, it is simply impossible to earn $60/month and have access to Internet and compete on oDesk. ( Who made me an expert?
@Phillip
What you are describing is contributing to a major erosion of out middle class. Companies that have money and ability to take advantage of the global workforce arbitrage get enriched while middle class gets left behind, and then the companies share the profits with other rich people who are their shareholders. So outsourcing is contributing to a polarization of our society. Have you tried living in U.S. on middle class salary recently?
The other negative aspect is that companies instead of investing into time-saving technology and improve our overall productivity as a society choose to use cheap labor in India. The benefit of course is we are lifting entire countries out of poverty ( that’s if they start charging more than $100 for cropping 10,000 images )
The wages in India, China, and Russia are rising 50% a year. Shanghai where a senior developer is making $3000/year is no longer an outsourcing spot.
Dimitri
I agree with Dimitri, that’s the major issue. The companies themselves aren’t trickling anything down to the middle class, even though the middle class makes up the bulk of American workers. They’re the ones getting stiffed, while the companies are turning big profits and basically keeping them for themselves.
Just wait until PXL gets bigger
and I’ll be hiring workers for ridiculous salaries to set an example of what an American company should be doing for the middle class.